The TRUTH about Nutrition: Naturals vs Enhanced /w Broderick Chavez!

The TRUTH about Nutrition: Naturals vs  Enhanced /w Broderick Chavez!

what's up everybody it is Izzie and I am back here again with Broderick Chavez from Team Evil GSP and due to the success of last video we are gonna go ahead and talk about a very similar topic and that is the differences nutritionally for the natural athlete versus the enhanced athlete so we want to cover misconceptions that might be out there as well as any actual differences that do exist that people should be mindful of so I think the first place to start on this one that everybody likes to just really obsess about and I'm sure projects tired of talking about it so hopefully you'll get through it quickly is that of protein needs so there is a long-standing argument in the on both sides of the fence where one argument basically says that because you have the increased muscle protein synthesis from using anabolics you should consume more protein because you're capable of synthesizing more of it whereas then on the other side of the equation since the drugs themselves also prevent breakdown you need less protein in total because more of it is being retained now Roger I already know your opinion on this but then what what what's your take on whether or not we need to see enhanced lifters pushing their protein intake higher than that of a natural well before before anything I will say this that a lot of times there's a confusion to just based on the numbers and the biggest theme that will come up in this conversation over and over and over is really the magnitudes change and that skews the perception of the numbers you might hear you know Oh Ronnie Coleman East and then you you'll hear a number you know 350 grams of protein or something but when you actually scale that to his body weight he's really not much of an outlier at all that's about the right amount of protein so there's a loser and that really shows up in the carbohydrate portion but the short answer is you know medical science going back to the Idol of the world works maybe before you know the RDAs world around and I know everybody's like oh we're athletes that doesn't apply to us my point is this every civilized industrialized country around the world all arrived at just about the same number so if it was some kind of grand Agri conspiracy or something there would have been an outlier or two but there isn't every nation on earth Japan United States UK you know Soviet Union we all got around one gram per kilogram in the case of the United States was actually 0.8 grams but it was is a very similar number all the way around the world and the reason for that is the science was good it was done well and for regular normal sized normal lean mass normal activity humans that's actually about the right answer when you get into the bodybuilding realm and athletic reveler it clearly goes up but the difference is from that sedentary to weight training the difference between drugs and not drugs is really not that big so the scale I use in my clients and I you spend a lifetime weeding through this I know it's name comes up an awful lot but I strongly suggest anybody out there has any concerns on this topic pick up a copy of lyle mcdonald's protein book it literally is the best book on the topic and I yell a little I'll rather plenty Utley because I'm terribly angry because that's the book I wish I had written if I if I could just like have my name on any book that's the and what I'd want because it's just good but the short answer is Lyle identifies just just scattered scans of studies across every demographic and the short answer is the protein ranges range between one point eight and three point two grams per kilogram you can very roughly round that to two to three and that is the scale I use and quite literally as you alluded to antibiotics make you more protein efficient nitrogen retention so I take the scale of two to three and if you were or genetically predisposed or more pharmacologically enhanced which in ask in a sense they are the same things you move more toward the two if you are natural or less than desirable of genetic potential you move more to the three and that's it body weight kilograms times between two to three if you're confused shoot the middle to point five right and I think Eric Helms has done some research as well showing that protein needs elevate during periods of caloric restriction yes that could be a relevant factor as well for bodybuilders but nonetheless I think when we're talking about the distinction between natural and enhanced the bottom line is that what from what we know it makes more sense that actually enhanced lifters need less protein right now per kilogram but the numbers seemingly are larger just because drugs work and athletes are lured and I think that that also gets even more interesting from a math perspective interesting might not be the right word when we talk about the sheer amount of muscle mass differences that sometimes exist so i absolutely for example the that metric that everyone likes subside x that shows that um the biggest naturals are right around 25 or 26 and then you have Olympia competitors that can get up to 35 to 40 so the other thing to consider with with some of these lean body mass calculations is just how much more about is actually legitimately protein muscle program on these gigantic bodybuilders so that that has to factor in and when you're talking about doing these equations where it looks like they're eating so much protein they've also just got so much more muscle than a natural even even that's similar you know body fat percentages it's just massive differences it could be 50 pounds of pure muscle tissue and the key the key there in in science and biology terms is the lean mass is the biologically active tissue much more so than bone density and all the other things so it's a really big deal right is one last little thing that I'll just throw at you before we move on from this topics I really think that's all there is to it have you personally seen anecdotally because there's a lot of people that like to claim this have you ever seen anecdotally in your experience a bodybuilder or a power lifter that did seem to benefit from going up to say something like two grams per pound of body weight which is you know roughly 4 or somewhere in the four kilogram yeah actually I have but I really think it's a matter of just bad analytics I don't disbelieve that they've made better progress but I strongly believe that the reason they made the greater progress was simply because in accumulating that level of protein intake they want an either more dietary fat intake or more total calories both of which would lead to greater greater gains in general if energy is the failure point and a lot of times I think it is now I will say this and I and Naturals and especially any natural that seemingly has that meadow Hanselman the course tagged to their name I will gladly concede that there is really no negative directly associated with over consuming protein it's not dangerous there's no real negative to it other than and this is what I come to every time is one protein foods tend to be the foods that carry the fat so getting excessive proteins leads the door open to getting excessive dietary fat and to every calorie of protein you eat is a calorie of carbohydrate you cannot eat and I happen to be of the belief that carbohydrates are positive in that stimulation of the insulin metabolism which is both anabolic and anti catabolic and our entire universe whirls around the idea of an AB ilysm so it seems very beneficial to me while that is like a just a perfect pitch right down the middle to segue in the pocket about carbohydrate versus fat intake the one thing that I will say about that is ironically I where I do see some harm is specifically for Naturals over consuming protein at the tail end of a diet because we're more enhanced for enhanced athletes really the calories almost never get so I don't want to say this because that sometimes happen but for Naturals it's a very common occurrence for a male or a female to be 120 pounds 160 pounds on stage and then the last few weeks of prep their their calorie intake SAR 1600 1700 and so it could be less than that absolutely you know fitness competitors they literally he literally an 80 or 900 calories in the final few weeks right exactly and I'm thinking here uh you know thinking along those 160 pound males but it's the same thing so if you're over consuming protein by 20 grams that could be a very significant amount because you might only have 60 grams for carbs now and that is barely enough to support our training exactly whereas ironically for the people that were worried about this question for the more enhanced athletes are generally so large that they won't have to push the calories that low to get that lean and the ingredient the amount of you know losing 25 carbs at the end of the diet might not be such a huge deal where it really is for for a natural bodybuilder yeah and and of course the drugs then make resistance to catabolism so much higher and the general recovery component that they can train more that reduced calorie load and therefore get their fat catabolism rather from dietary restriction but from activity yeah so with that said that let's launch right into the whole carbohydrate versus fat intake you are known I guess as the low fat guy which I don't think is a fair characterization but yeah I suppose there's you know there's just an argument out there about how many calories should basically be coming from um you set your protein you have a total caloric load that's gonna determine whether or not you know you're gaining weight or losing weight and then you subtract protein one way or another you have to fill out the rest of those calories with carbs and fats so your mind is there any difference between the way that an enhanced athlete should be filling out the rest of their calories versus a natural athlete well there is but again it's in my opinion it's mostly semantics in a natural athlete a portion and it is honestly well and truly a really small number but there is a portion of their consumed dietary fat that is being vectored into the Cascade of cholesterol to pregnenolone to testosterone to all these exciting sex hormones that they're so terribly worried about but the reality is if you add up all the sexual notes in someone's blood it came from a teaspoon of oil it's a it's a shamefully little bit of fat yeah so this idea that your dietary fats could get so low that you choke off hormonal levels yes it happens in I don't know somewhere horrible Somali odors yes it really does happen to unfortunate starving people but to a fleet that are actually eating any measure of food that's a really unlikely scenario the reality is the reduction in sex hormone production is mostly just brought on by adaptation to diet and overtraining yeah so I really don't know although it's real and I'm you know my science pedigree says 100% it's real it's not a huge concern right so there is this small amount that's necessitated you to get into these pathways on the Enhanced side it's kind of funny because it's both sides to the coin there's really no need on a biological level outside of the few manufacturing costs your body has they come in fatty acids stell membranes full of interesting things with bone marrow and fats are used in the construction of brain tissue their their use play again really low levels but on the sex hormone side there's almost no need for them because every drop of sex hormones times a thousand is being introduced exactly this later through you and varying anabolics but the comical part is again because enhanced athletes are so much more massive and that additional mass is biologically active tissue ie muscle they can actually tolerate a great deal more dietary fat and not have the same level of problems yeah so my suggestion is always keep dietary fat as low as feasibly and reasonably and practically it's probably the more important word low but the reality is most athletes just don't really have an issue with dietary fat because they have so much more margins on every side right and if you are a two hundred plus to earn fifty pound guy just getting your protein in is gonna necessitate a certain level of fat intake that this it almost a non-starter for the enhance athlete anyway because it what are you gonna do like eat flounder for every grandma you know it's just not gonna happen you're gonna get that accidentally to get exactly and that's what I tell people to get two hundred and fifty grams of protein from flesh sources okay I'll include eggs in that but eggs red meat red fish you know poultra P if you ate the cleanest foods possible you would still get fifty or sixty grams of fat out of that yeah then consider that there's a little bit of fat in some of the carbohydrates you're consuming just there's some in the air it's just around like it's hard not to get a hundred grams of fat for that individual so I think that the basic maths of you Jewish for an enhanced athlete Jewish grams of protein per kilogram and one or less if possible grams of fat works out almost perfectly yeah a number that I think is being bandied about quite a lot is the point three grams per pound and I think that I'm not sure where that sorry I think that's a micro sort all thing but I just want to throw that one out there because I want to mention that that's actually just a practical guideline come from experience it's not a hard and fast rule based nature whereas some of these protein members that we've thrown out are very heavily backed by the literature so there is room for a bit of experimentation so it's kind of like you said hungry it's probably somewhere in the range if we could you can convert it so kilos or pounds but probably more like point two two point five is gonna be the optimal range for most people in there which falls right into what you said if we do it for kilogram of bodyweight more like 0.5 to 1 yeah exactly and that's and that's exactly what I tell people is for normal non coupon test training 1 is your absolute upper limit point 5 is your absolute low or limit everything in the middle is reasonably fair game the only time we would intentionally dip below point 5 grams per kilogram of dietary fat is during deep levels of restriction and quite honestly it's again if you're enhanced than eating any measure of food getting below point 5 grams per kilogram is really difficult extremely yeah it's so funny because a lot of the times you think of these issues and and we're talking about the differences between the natural and enhanced guys and people think that there's more to be concerned about for the enhanced guys or as sometimes it's actually the fact of dealing with such smaller people makes a breed of more concern to Naturals I think so III again I have almost no involvement with Naturals and I you know I kind of I'm a little bit of a dick at times and say I just don't care about them but yeah realities it's just not my realm but with the level of science and understanding I have I look at it and I'm well aware that it's it's I don't want say harder because believe me enhance people work really hard but it's as hard with less total payoff and less total margin and it's really something that I don't I don't even know how you would I don't even know how you would navigate those waters because it really doesn't look like there's a lot of options well you know the other funny thing about this and this is getting a little off-topic so I won't belabor it too much is that there is this disdain for what you talked about earlier about these RDA values but the funny thing is is that the original disdain for those values is basically just saying you know well they're not high enough the stain for the value is not suggest that you should go below it which is overly which is really the only people that have any possibility of doing that or contest prep Naturals contests for the people that have a chance to go below the RDA values in vitamins minerals and essential fatty acids it's not enhanced athletes actually it's exactly that need to be tracking it even more closely agreed and more finally I agree on these I agree entirely well with that said and we've covered on proteins and fat so you know somewhere between 2 to 3 grams per kilogram of body weight for protein 0.5 to 1 gram of fat per kilogram of body weight and that leaves us with carbohydrates to basically fill out the rest and you I don't wanna I don't know that it's necessarily a unique take but you're definitely one of the people I think that popularized the note more of the notion that it's a good thing to pump as much carbs into yourself as you can um I don't know if that's a fair fair characterization but why don't you talk a little bit about your ideas there and why you think that carbs calorie per calorie our possibly more anabolic than well I really and you know I don't even think in my mind it's not a possibility in my mind it's an absolute certainty but I'm comfortable with someone debating the topic but the logic goes adds this three macronutrients that's proteins and carbohydrates proximally keyword in this conversation is proximally only one of them generates a significant metabolic hormonal response you can eat gobs of fat and it doesn't do anything immediately to your blood sugar or your testosterone levels your name an important fundamental or not doesn't change the same thing goes with protein I know people love to get on the leucine box and tell me how insulin a genic leucine is but one they're wildly exaggerating it and two a piece of meat or a piece of fish is relatively non leucine rich they're the only time leucine becomes relevant as when you're pumping it in in inordinate volumes or exogenously you know an IV fashion Dietary leucine is not a big player in this conversation so you've got fats do little or nothing proteins do maybe a little bit more but not much when you introduce carbohydrates you get a significant proximal response from a legitimately anabolic hormone known as insulin so if you asked me just in a vacuum if you had three choices two of them do nothing hormonal e and one does something which one you're gonna take I'm gonna take the hormonal e active one because I happen to think hormones are cool that's literally the nuts and bolts of the logic and I mean on a very and not really a scientific level but let's think of it like this – you actually have bodybuilders that are intentionally using insulin in this exact same cyclic fashion before meals so what does that tell you and when that was introduced into bodybuilding bodybuilders gained another they went up to a new level so yeah they finally improved an order-of-magnitude upon the introduction of insulin and we have a non pharmacological modality of elevating insulin it's called food it is really simple yeah so I think that leaves us with you know all three macronutrients and the picture kind of looks like you get the amount of protein that you need and then you set your fat minima and then whatever your body weight goals are you set your calories and then everything else goes to carbs and that's and that's the size of it that's literally how I how I will promote this as a thing and it's funny how I want to chime in one little piece just kind of to preemptively defend myself I get this nomenclature of oh he's a high carb guy I am NOT a high carb guy what I am is a relatively low protein of fat guy and I happen to work with relatively big athletes so the diff protein is reasonably low it's bad is reasonably low but energy requirements are pretty high there's only one thing to stuff in that all folks its carbohydrates so and I also and this is not a problem that Naturals typically run into but I will point it out as maybe a difference between Naturals and enhanced sheer and total appetite can be a problem it's reasonably well accepted in medical terms and certainly in practical terms that protein could be more satiating per calorie than carbohydrates so if appetite or maintaining an elevated appetite is a goal steering away from the thing that's going to depress your appetite and steering toward the insulin genetic thing that might drive appetite could actually be a double benefit and I don't really think there's any doubt about that I mean there's quite a bit of just I mean for example Stan efforting has this entire diet that's basically based around that idea 100 the vertical diet and I think a lot of people kind of interpreted as him saying just feed a bunch of white rice but that that's mainly for guys that are you know in that six to ten thousand calorie range per day where you wear the white rice guess what it's not as filling as potato okay or exact further further amounts of chicken so yeah he it's easy it's you know easy to consume it's easy to read consume yeah there's there's so many reasons why that's just a really good idea and we just look at that this is brings is gonna bring us to like one of the next things that I wanted to address but I mean just again look at it from a math perspective and I'll make things really easy just for our steak here so let's say somebody's getting 0.33 grams of fat per pound of body weight and then one gram of protein per pound of body weight that's gonna bring us up to a total of seven times their body weight in calories so my typical you know caloric surplus for a natural athlete is gonna happen somewhere between you know 15 to 20 times their body weight in calories so that leaves you with you know the rest of that going to carbohydrates and it's really not that much for example to go from 7 times body weight to 15 requires only 2 grams of carbohydrate per pound of body weight is that a high carbohydrate number not really a 200 grams perhaps no I don't think so and then if you even push that to three times your body weight for the typical let's say 150 pound natural it's probably not that's probably too low but that's still only 450 carbs yeah I don't find it you know I again I work with ifbb pros and you top-level strongmen and you know we're we're consistently in the triple digit values we're consistently talking about you 800 to 1200 daily grams of carbohydrates and it's again just simply because big like automobiles or any other machine you want to talk about big machines generally burn more fuel and it's just basic physics yeah and I think that is probably the one the one thing that we can talk about where there is interesting and interesting difference where I don't think the necessary calorie intake stew continued to accrue body weight and mass they don't scale linearly in my experience savory what I mean by that is for Naturals there's a fairly linear response up into a point you can get to a point where all of a sudden to get somebody from it's always fairly heavy in my experience so like say your turn to push a meal from 220 to 240 you might hit this weird thing that happens where you they're gaining just fine and around 3,000 3,500 and then suddenly to get to a new level it takes 5,000 you jump that doesn't make sense well that is almost a necessity from what I've seen in enhanced athletes where the bigger these big guys are almost always on five six seven eight thousand calories a day when they're in a surplus does your gender hear what I'm saying there yeah absolutely and I think that that nonlinear curve is really the difference between baseline and we'll call it synthetic mass where your weight training to get to a crude mass that's unnatural that all of that tissue is highly biologically active whereas like as a little kid grows the the entire they're growing bone they're growing your organ mass so the body weight gain is linear which so is all of the systemic creature whereas once you're an adult and you start gaining weight that weight is either lean mass or body fat yeah so I really do agree with you it just it's a weird little armchair rule I typically find the BMR of a bodybuilding enhanced body building individual is typically somewhere between 25 and 45 kilocalories per kilogram typically if I don't know anything about the athlete I'll just ballpark the middle and I would give somebody 35 kilocalories per kilogram so for instance a 220 pound athlete I would just off the top of my head go 3,500 calories and then there's of course the bell curve of life there are people down in 225 and definitely people up in the 45 but if you consider my premise that 35 you know 3,500 calories is their BMR now to gain weight your your right into the you know into the sexy business like that's 5,000 calories at a week yeah absolutely and I think that is probably the one real difference that I that we've even covered so far and it's even then it's not really a difference but more of a again a quirk of athlete size but there is there is something to be said for where there's a big disconnect between for Naturals this advice to just eat and eat and eat is almost it's just almost you almost unilaterally terrible because they idly they just don't have the the mechanistic support going on to build enough lean body mass to make that justifiable whereas and then and then I again I don't want to besmirch anyone or anyone's product or anyone's thinking but I think it then leads into these exaggerated and unnecessary cycles and cutting and minute cutting and all of these crazy gyrations simply because they irrationally overrate and now how they need to irrationally under eat and I think you could smooth out the whole mess and basically arrive at the same place with less effort less stress and less perturbations and that ties interestingly into a point that we made in the last video where one of the things that you brought up that I thought was very interesting was that the average mezzo cycle length for the enhanced lifter is going to be longer than it is for the natural you think for similar reasons does that same type of situation become apparent when we're talking about weight gain phases versus weight loss phases are enhanced athletes able to gain weight effectively quality wait for longer periods of time than Naturals and is that why we started to see some of this pushback and the paradigm of mini books and mini cuts more so because Naturals just don't benefit from the longer slower bulks that aren't almost a necessity for enhanced athletes yes I think that's exactly it and despite you know the mag the magnitude and force of modern pharmacology you're still dealing with the innate creature a human being even the most elite one can only express protein at a given rate there is no ability to get it faster so the timescale is somewhat capped but the magnitudes and durations are wildly stretched so yeah you get to maximum physiologic rate where you're accruing a number and I won't even make it makes an assumption of what that number is but you're accruing X amount of protein per day so now the only real additional component is how many consecutive days can you do it and if you have drugs that are fighting fatigue fighting you know all of these mechanistic down regulations plus doing things like driving appetite driving aggression driving motivation what you get is exactly that you get maximal performance over maximum duration whereas a natural might be able to get into that maximum zone but it's literally a situation where by the time they get there the wheels fall off the wagon from stress and from a purely nutritional perspective as well there are some pretty amazing nutrient partitioning benefits when you get the whole equation going and it's not just the antibody androgenic side of things but when when the insulin comes into play and HGH and insulin growth hormone thyroid hormones you know other quirky metabolic tools like like computer all you know and god forbid you even move into the role of tnp there's so many literally vectors and mechanisms than just utterly unavailable to a natural that level you're almost talking about a separate species yeah and I again I not to belabor the point too much but I do think this is kind of again the one thing that we can point out that is a major difference where it's just the sheer amount of food and again it does come down again to athletes eyes but also there is that exponential curve for the you know the necessity of just the sheer amount that tends to occur the bigger and bigger that you get yeah and you know the thing that's funny is most of the people listening to this do something for a living other than what you and I do for a living and you know whether you work in and I'm not about to profess being an expert in these things but I know they exist this this applies to automobiles for instance if you double the speed of an automobile you want to pull the fuel consumption that's a pretty accepted equation there's a similar one to your airplanes and boats and there's even a similar equation in two of trains for every so many cars you add you magnify the fuel consumption by a logarithmic function it's exactly the same thing here as you add mass to a creature the energy consumption curve just goes up disproportionately not unlike any other machine in our normal life yeah and I I do think that that's that's one one thing that I'll have to say we're one of the one of the things that I've run into that is very different is I rarely run into natural athletes who are not teenagers then that the actual problem is that they won't eat enough that is it's really I mean if you can spaying for any amount of time eating enough as a natural athlete is not really a problem I mean unless you're a super heavyweight are you really struggling to get down three to four thousand calories that's a joke to me like that's I have feel no sympathy for you at all that's great whereas when we're talking about listening the guys like you know Jay Cutler and he's talking about oh well you know today I'm gonna eat 11 meals don't even like food anymore it's just what I have to do you know it's it's because he's having to shove down eleven thousand calories a day for months on end it's a totally different world and to focus on not being able to eat enough is a real thing for an answer for enhance athletes figuring out how to be able to you enough is an actual problem for them whereas I don't understand how it could be a problem for a natural athlete it's the exact this really it's they had to figure out how to stay full the the funniest food story I'm aware of or at least I believe the funniest food story was any any hall I'll telling you a group of people which I was on the periphery of that he literally needed to make a microwave pizza so that he could eat that while he was cooking because if he didn't the act of cooking just made his hunger unbearable so he literally had to have a pizza while he was preparing his food that is amazing it's probably in that 12,000 calorie a day really most 100% seven days a week no breaks 10,000 plus calories starting at sunrise literally you know tells stories of falling asleep with food on its chest like he didn't get all of his food done and he woke up the next morning with bits of sandwich and things on his chest because he just failed to consume all his food like that's that's real yeah and that's just not a thing for Natalie's degree and it's such a thing for a lot of the larger enhance athletes that I think the messages they get you know miss mash miss crosswire and listen to that just but on the other hand it is going to be an issue if you want to maximize your size I think so and you know the short answer in this whole conversation is you get enough protein but don't go crazy minimize your dietary fat to a reasonable comfortable sustainable level consume the difference in high-quality carbohydrates always put something green replate and goddamnit that's about all you need to know about nutrition I mean literally I joke regularly you should be able to write it on post-it note yeah well there are a few other little pieces of the nutritional puzzle that we might address quickly to see if there's a short one would be food composition so typically you know if you'll talk about food actually this one bothers me a lot I'm gonna be honest but when people talk about food composition especially for naturals it's kind of just like uh you know eat some vegetables here and there and get some fruit and and and then yeah there is a notion that more enhanced athletes are actually the ones that tend to be more meticulous about food quality and do you have any and this is not a great question this is not really a question about this but do you have any thoughts on whether or not food composition is relatively more or less important for enhanced versus natural athletes especially you the fact that you know the enhanced athlete does have to worry a little bit more at least about blood pressure cholesterol partner yeah and I would say more than a little bit more I think that concern is it certainly should be at the forefront and again I see that as a very double-edged sword because I do sincerely agree with you that an enhanced athlete probably has more concern with the quality of food also because like any complex machine if you're ramping it to the upper limits you are burning all the little substrates I think enhanced athletes are much more prone to micro nutrition deficiencies calcium magnesium chromium zinc iodine all the little things that probably fall through the cracks and are probably made up by dudes and rich flour and what-have-you in low Rev aching normal natural people so I think that's a major concern but then the other side I also know that many enhanced athletes defer to lower quality foods just by virtue of there's good there's calories there they can get their calorie burned in that way but ma what I'll focus on is what I suggest when I coach athletes and that is the highest possible food quality one that you can afford two that you can feasibly prepare and then lastly that will feasibly supply your calorie load in a perfect world I would probably be nomen claimed as they lean bulk kind of guy because I do think the higher quality food ultimately leads to a higher quality health and higher quality health supports high quality performance absolutely it's one of those things that um it would be very difficult to turn up statistical statistical anything of statistical significance in a study because it would have to be so long-term and it would be so expensive and nobody really cares whether her not exactly yeah but they here's your's I I do have a little bit of a bee in my bonnet on this one and it bugs me that nutritionally speaking there is this idea that for natural athletes all you have to do is make sure that you eat a couple servings of fruit per day and get like two or three servings of vegetables and then just don't worry about it again the whole issue that that people have raised with the RDA was that the minimums were too low it wasn't that you should ignore getting the minimums and what I found is that with the whole if it fits your macros trend actually there are plenty of Naturals that do not meet basic micronutrient requirements 100% they're on 1,900 calories a day they weigh a hundred and sixty-five pounds and they haven't had a whole grain in a year and you know what and they are deficient deficient in potassium or more even more commonly they have improper ratios of things like calcium magnesium or omega sixes to Omega threes a lot of BM to potassium and they don't even officially is almost universal yeah it's not even considered because I personally believe that a lot of the evidence-based Geysers constable for this on the natural side of the coin because they make it too simplistic as just you just eat a little bit of vegetables and fruit and then if it fits your macros we're good we're good to go but I actually don't see that as the case which is to me this is actually not a difference so I I'm right there like I'm right there with you both like there's some some kind of old you know kind of old almost horse wisdom going back to me all the way to like Vince Gironda like what was that I think he got his starting to 40s yeah the idea is that a body building plate should be red white and green every single plate that you put in front of you should have read me like a storage green vegetable red white and green and that's really as stupid and childlike as it is about the best advice I've heard it's certainly not bad and I will just say this again because it's a kind of a theme that's come up again and again while work it's for almost two different reasons I feel like some of the top enhance athletes need to be more need to be mindful of micro nutrient intake because they're trying to run that's basically a turbocharged level or you know you go back to the engine analogy they're trying to run this engine at superhuman levels and it requires everything to be perfect however a a thing that happens on the other side of the continuum is that Naturals can get so low if their caloric intake that they actually start missing meeting the basic requirements of some of these vitamins and just it's very simple nowadays to track these things there's just I know it's funny I'm notorious for suggesting blood tests and they're like yeah but I'm not taking drugs cause I'm like you saw blood asshole let's find out what's in it and beyond that there's a lot of people like already if you're already tracking your macros there's a website called chronometer which basically imports micronutrient data from the RDA and the USDA and a bunch of other government bodies that hey guess what the microwave your data for things like and oranges and you can put it by it and see how you're doing and I know I'm not suggesting he'll be obsessing about this but maybe you should have absolutely especially because it is something that in my opinion for Naturals gets ignored because it's always been you're never gonna see a professional bodybuilder or someone who's trying to push for the heights of bodybuilding eat nothing but crap that that's not really going to happen because you know it's just too competitive you can't do that so agreed so it's almost just that by default that a lot of those guys have excellent diet quality now it's a little bit different we're talking about like strongmen and power lifting or we're guys are trying to eat their sandwich off their chest and their pizza all of-a people they cook food but again though for for Naturals it's not something that you should take for granted I don't like that idea and actually again that this to me is a misconception but in a funny way it's not a misconception of here's a difference it's here's something that should be the same be more like being enhanced guys and care a little bit more about your food composition I literally I absolutely agree with you and it's not a dietary thing but another thing that drives me insane and talking about vitamins which actually is kind of wrong because vitamin D calcic linfer all which was what I was about to address technically is it a vitamin it's actually a prohormone but nonetheless people don't see the Sun anymore every person walking this planet seemingly vitamin D deficient um you know again that's correctable folks you know little milk a little sunlight let's let's go it's not that hard and the easte varies is this like a forty dollar blood test exactly yeah if there's no excuse for none but I guess that's a nice little segue is there as far as supplementation goes again we've already made some reference to the fact that there are more concerns about say calcification deposits and arteries cholesterol blood pressure are there or even the depletion of chromium for example for an insulin using body but are there I guess I just okay I think the cat out of the bag there and gave one of them away but are there any supplements that you personally think are in general a good idea for most enhanced lifters that maybe aren't as relevant for Naturals um yes quite honestly there are and I'm literally going to go down the list of this is me you know as as clever as I think I am this is what I spend my money on and that is ZMA which is a zinc product chromium picolinate slow the hyacinth which is a b-vitamin which has consistently and even in some countries is a prescription item to normalize blood lipid profiles elevating HDL which is never a bad idea vitamin C about a gram a day and that's the beginning and the end of the list that I personally take I also do take a baby aspirin per day which is technically not a supplement but I use it as such and that's that's the list of all the things that all the people and they know and all the companies willing to send me products I spend my hard-earned money on those things and nothing else yeah and I since hearing you talk about them I use all those things as well and another one that I'll throw in there that for me I've seen at least enough evidence to convince me is vitamin K mk7 for I don't disagree with that I don't disagree with that but I haven't personally got on the bandwagon but I literally don't don't disagree with you even slightly yeah and that that's and that's one that I have in there just because one of you know it does seem to move to help with the plaque deposits issue and that's one of the primary side effects long-term so I'm gonna go ahead and include it but yeah probably something that I would never recommend to a natural athlete and I think that might bring us to our first actual difference in the entire video between you know the the nutrition for enhanced and natural athletes and on that note I think we've pretty much covered every single base there is there anything I forgot to bring up that you wanted to address no I mean that again I try to be very clear on this to keep in mind to you and all your listeners that naturalness is not on the forefront of my thinking so could I think of some more interesting things to tell you about you know drug use absolutely as far as the compare and contrast that pretty much exhausts my knowledge because I'm just very deficient in my knowledge of naturalness and I think it just leads me to want to kind of hammer home one final point here is that just because drugs allow you to get away with more things does not mean changes the equation from what is optimal all that much 100% I think that is the primary misconception is that you get a guy who's just naturally talented in one way or another doesn't really get very good information doesn't have a science background so he just figures out how to load a barrel and pin it and it's even better and then people copy that and then they look at it and it looks way different from what all these evidence-based guys who are training the best Naturals are doing and they say well there's this huge disparity between the best way to train as an Enhanced guy and as a natural guy when what they're really looking at is a genetic outlier mixed with the fact that drugs work not comparing to optimal modalities of training in reality as we've basically shown in these two videos there's not that many real differences that don't ultimately come down to just the size of the athlete that we're working with yep and you know just to really illustrate that I always use the car analogy and which is funny cuz I'm not a car guy but you know you're from the moon and you knew nothing about cars but somebody lined up a family sedan a sports car an absolute race car in a monster truck you would literally not you you would be able to discern the fact that they're all the same family of machine you wouldn't be convinced that one of them something entirely different you would see four wheels to seeds a steering wheel like there's so many goddamn commonalities that obviously they have pretty base commonalities and that's exactly what we have here is the base chassis associated with an a control and an enhanced is exactly the same the only difference is the way you deal with the aftermarket parts the add-ons and it's right there in the nomenclature enhanced athletic we're not talking about homo sapien and homo enhances or self whatever you know it's not two different species it's still the same no just things be better in every way and that's the size of it and that's you know and it's funny because I think Naturals like think I'm just kind of like poking fun at them if that's what you choose to do that's fine and I respect that you are doing that to the best of your ability but at the same time they really need to take a moment and realize the magnitudes of the difference and it would I think clear up a lot of the fog I really do yeah is again I'm right there with you I I think that there's just really there a lot of the habits that they have the best natural athletes if you put them on a decent protocol for performance enhancement they wouldn't have to change that much they just might be able to do a little bit more and all of a sudden they would hit new levels of lean body mass and strength and that would in time necessity may be larger small changes to the programming but initially not much would really change besides everything just would start to work better at 100% and there are athletes that I could point to that are excellent examples of that that they were very good natural bodybuilders and now they're becoming very good at Hance bodybuilders and it's exactly as you said you know the initially the changes were small and as their mass goes up the changes become more more aberrant well I mean I think that's all that I've got to say on on this one is any final thoughts no now I appreciate you bringing me on I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and your people your you and your followers so that's pretty much all I had to stay on the topic and should anybody want or need my particular skill set feel free to reach out um el splice is he's your guy yeah so I guess all will conclude with kind of what we did last time and that's you know if you're looking for more information on not not just pharmacology to be fair team Evo GSP covers the whole spectrum of lifting topics you've got videos on lifting shoes you know periodization it's not just pharmacology I think you're a little bit unfairly pain and sometimes as like a pharmacology guy and well it's it's always great to have something to pin your hat on I suppose like I was known as the power looking to win guy I know some things about nutrition and pharmacology shoes so both of our sites contain information on the full spectrum of topics if you look if you listen to us and you like our styles and you want to hear more information from us go check out our stuff you can find Broderick over at team evil GSP and again I am a member on his site he'll confirm that for you himself it's well worth becoming a member there and tons of great information and likewise if you guys want to know what I'm up to I have a very similar set up to Broderick he's one of the guys that inspired me to actually create a membership site so there you have it you know my website is izzy nervous calm thank you guys for listening to us I do have one request for you guys if you enjoyed this video give us some ideas on topics that you think would be really interesting for us to talk about because you know we can come up with them all day but it's gonna be stuff that we want to talk about which is not necessarily what you want to hear about so if you have ideas for us that you think could make a difference really educate people move the needle let us know and we'll consider you know addressing those in future videos absolutely all right well project thank you so much for joining me once again it's always great to to get to chat with you you're such a smart guy and love the the stories you know the Eddie Hall stuff is great we really appreciate having you on and I'm glad to have gotten another video absolutely thanks for having me perfect one there thanks everybody

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17 thoughts on “The TRUTH about Nutrition: Naturals vs Enhanced /w Broderick Chavez!

  1. Izzy I’m running Smolov Jr, what’s your thought on running it for 2 months and then switch to Bulgarian light 1 month before a meet?

  2. Slo-niacin improves cholesterol but doesn't decrease risk of heart disease, by the way. Not a horrible supplement but magnesium and garlic will be better towards general health means.

  3. Question that I'd like to see addressed: how does an enhanced athlete calculate how much to eat on and off cycle? How do partition ratios change depending on super supplement dosages, etc.?

  4. I'd love to become enhanced, but securing these compounds is the difficult part. I have zero problem sticking myself twice a week or more, but I don't want to be injecting random crap off the internet into my body. Little help in that department?

  5. I eat about 4,000 calories/day and get about 140 grams of protein, all plant based without protein powder. I will turn 50 this year and started competing in the 83 kg class of USAPL. At my last meet my total was 81% of what is needed to qualify for Nationals so I'm not a star or anything. I did not experience any decline in strength after I went plant based in 2008.

  6. Izzy I think you have a unique angle here with your social media presence.

    Most fitness channels are one of the following..

    1) people who claim natural and aren't natural.
    2) people who claim natural and are natural

    In your case however you have an honest channel where you're providing quality content… Are not natural and are truthful about it which there isn't much of in YouTube fitness and may be a good niche to occupy. Best of luck to you.

  7. Maybe a topic for the future could be the extent of performance enhancement per 1. dosage, 2. lbs of muscle mass drug free vs drug built, 3. natural vs enhanced for different sports.

    Like there was that paper on East German research showing a female shot putter gained 2 m on her throws in 8 weeks on Tbol.
    There's the idea that drug built muscle is weaker than drug free built muscle from some of Greg Nuckols work. Is this just because of difference in training frequency (i.e. naturals get more quality reps?), or something actually in the muscle which is different?
    Also how much of a difference do drugs make for different sports? 10% difference between tested and untested powerlifting, but Ray Williams all time record for the squat, what explains that? 10% difference roughly between Olly lifters when those 7 countries were banned between 2015-17. Also American vs International records.
    Maybe a 3% difference for sprinting has been proposed based on differences in the force output. What about for most track and field, with the idea of wanting increased force production but without much weight gain? How much can some of these substances increase strength without increasing bodyweight?

  8. This is so cool….I’ve been following this channel for awhile and I myself have gone to the dark side this past November so it’s so rad to see this channel progress, keep it up!

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